Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

But that might be a me thing.

2:32 PM

I would inform such a person that their mindset is wrong if they're parrotnoid.

2:32 PM

And that the first one worked better.

A long kiss goodnight

That's where I'm unsure. You can be open to intrusive thoughts and believe the voice talking back isn't you, but will you still believe that tomorrow? If you don't and you get parrotnoid, that's where I would want to reassure you just need more practice. On separation not being unique to tulpamancy- I think that's a fair point and it makes sense. I don't think most things in tulpamancy are really that original or anything, and I would be surprised if tulpa-like experiences were not taking place under a different label in the past.

Later you can also accept it's no longer "I" and "you" but "I" and another "I".

That's one of the interesting debates in tulpamancy, if that interpretation leads to having a tulpa or not. Personally, I think if tulpas are ultimately facets of yourself, I'm not sure if you're working with tulpas anymore. I think you are still practicing tulpamancy because you're using similar skills and techniques, but I think a tulpa should be expected to be somehow not you at some point. On the other hand, if someone defines "I" to be their SOC and they manage to create a second one and they can switch with that, are they still practicing tulpamancy? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't help that it's not clear if such a thing is possible or not.

Well, you need to dissociate first to integrate. But integration doesn't make further dissociation impossible. We can easily make new tulpas with our current mindset. What I wonder is if having that mindset from the start doesn't prevent you from achieving dissociation.

2:35 PM

It was supposed to be me ^

it was you

Like there is any difference, at least with external interactions

2:37 PM

Well, at least with external interactions that don't involve any particular identity.

2:37 PM

Any of me could respond in exactly the same way I did through Mon's account accidentally

you are a bit inconsistent with your language, if you are all mon then there’s one “me”?

2:39 PM

or do j misunderstand something

proxi

you are a bit inconsistent with your language, if you are all mon then there’s one “me”?

I have to admit, we are inconsistent, not just with language. As I mentioned earlier, you can sometimes see yourself (including all of your identities) as a few entities and sometimes as just one.

2:45 PM

Both in external and internal interactions. Sometimes a particular identity is much stronger associated with something than others.

2:48 PM

And using more than one is just convenient for this reason at least. You could argue that it might form of coping with something that we don't fully accept yet want to embrace.

yeah I’m not sure if I would support something like that. someone can build a habit of putting burden of things they don’t like or make them uncomfortable on a different part, never owning their mistakes and not giving themselves a chance to learn from their mistakes; something i’ve seen multiple times in others, and for a long time in myself too (edited)

2:59 PM

that’s far from embracing

proxi

yeah I’m not sure if I would support something like that. someone can build a habit of putting burden of things they don’t like or make them uncomfortable on a different part, never owning their mistakes and not giving themselves a chance to learn from their mistakes; something i’ve seen multiple times in others, and for a long time in myself too (edited)

It can sound like that and I agree there is a danger of doing just that.

3:14 PM

Although I try to take responsibility for what all parts of me do, regardless if I'd do the same while being just Mon.

That's one of the interesting debates in tulpamancy, if that interpretation leads to having a tulpa or not. Personally, I think if tulpas are ultimately facets of yourself, I'm not sure if you're working with tulpas anymore. I think you are still practicing tulpamancy because you're using similar skills and techniques, but I think a tulpa should be expected to be somehow not you at some point.

I would interpret host and tulpa being "I" and another "I" in a different way. I'm an individual, and I think and speak from my perspective, you can see, I keep saying "I" as I talk about myself. I live in this mind, I'm not an "other." I'm not a facet of my host.

Can you be an individual, but not an other?

5:28 PM

Or, I guess in that sentence that means "I am not defined by my host feeling that my thoughts aren't my host"

5:32 PM

I was thinking about the idea of two individuals existing as one - can you be the same thing but also be individuals? Is there a case where that's true? Computers have processes and virutal machines, but those things define lines and create "others" that are kept separate. Maybe in the case of two people working on a problem together, they kind of form a "combined being" through being connected with language and all that, and the output of that, the papers they write, are that being's words/language? I guess at that point a tulpa would be "an individual and not an other" to the host only in the case that the tulpa was part of the host's "output and thought process" - like maybe your tulpa is helping you think or something, and if they were gone you'd be changed as a person in terms of how you think/what you say and do?

i think that yes to all you said

5:41 PM

two individuals can be looked as separate or as one depending on the context. we all do it all the time when it comes to feeling as part a family, school class, company. we feel we belong and identify with a group. two individuals in head can do that in a similar way, with the difference that they choose to identify as one person rather than a group, and in this case of course the connection is way stronger because your thinking processes are much closer than what you could achieve with a different brain to the point you do feel like one person. you can jump from one state to another depending on the context or circumstances you are in

5:41 PM

and the second thing you mentioned… it’s actually part of my integration and healing process

5:43 PM

i tried to see if that would work with a friend tulpamancy system and there were pretty good results. the thinking is that you will have much deeper change if it’s you that is soothing yourself/help do something hard etc. rather than other headmate doing that for you

That last bit on it being you soothing yourself -> more effective is interesting. Might be a grass is always greener, as I've always seen one of the aspects of tulpamancy be "it's like someone else so it's more effective."

6:01 PM

But in the case where that's been the case for so long, I could totally see that being a downside as well and "stealing" it for self support being an improvement as well is a flip-side I didn't expect.

I would inform such a person that their mindset is wrong if they're parrotnoid.

Early on I don't know if the problem is an ineffective mindset towards separation or a lack of practice, hence the advice to practice more. If it's been 2 months even and you're still stuck, I'm far more inclined to believe it's a mindset issue.

Well, you need to dissociate first to integrate.

While I agree, once integrated the definition of "I" changes. It's no longer "me" and "you", it's "me" and "me".

11:51 PM

I haven't finished, I'll come back later

Reguile

I was thinking about the idea of two individuals existing as one - can you be the same thing but also be individuals? Is there a case where that's true? Computers have processes and virutal machines, but those things define lines and create "others" that are kept separate. Maybe in the case of two people working on a problem together, they kind of form a "combined being" through being connected with language and all that, and the output of that, the papers they write, are that being's words/language? I guess at that point a tulpa would be "an individual and not an other" to the host only in the case that the tulpa was part of the host's "output and thought process" - like maybe your tulpa is helping you think or something, and if they were gone you'd be changed as a person in terms of how you think/what you say and do?

I can't speak much from a group-person relationship perspective. I believe there's a difference between being a 'collective individual' and being an individual, but that's just based on my feelings and not any observations or deep thought even. I think when you see two people as one, you ignore the inconsistencies and you strip away what makes them unique. For the company example, some people go as far as strip away the human from the spokesperson. However, I don't have any counter arguments for any counter examples, I don't have a strong opinion on that. I was thinking about this from an 'if parallel processing was real' standpoint and I don't know it matters? For example, if you had a singlet who managed to create a second version of themself and the two versions thought in parallel, would they be different or are they still the same person? I'm inclined to believe the latter because I think regardless of what happens in your brain, how you label who is what really matters.

On self-soothing- I don't know if is necessarily a bad thing to depend on a headmate when you need help. I have techniques I use to calm myself down, but those can backfire and I end up shutting down. We have enough emotional separation in-system Ranger can think more clearly than I can, and even her presence can sometimes calm me down. I think it especially more difficult to calm myself down when I'm the source of my own frustration. I'm not going as far as I did in the past, but sometimes having a little bit of a break from myself can help a lot

I don't know if is necessarily a bad thing to depend on a headmate when you need help

I don't think it's necessarily bad. I'd say it's a bad thing to depend on a headmate in a way that prevents self development, as a pure coping mechanism to permanently avoid rather than solve issues.

Ranger what is "unconsciously aware"?

When I possess Gray, he doesn't go completely inactive. Even though he stops thinking in mindvoice and I can "summon" him just like my other headmates, if I stop thinking or we daydream Gray starts to react again. It's like he was put on pause instead of being turned off, and he's ready to react to the next trigger. This is why a lapse in my attention can lead to me losing control and Gray either takes over completely or starts to blend with me.

oh so he's inactive, but in such a way that he can be active again in an instant?

Yup.

and is ready as the default?

10:39 PM

Ah ok.

If we hear a noise, usually I'm the one reacting to it. After I forget Ranger and do something else for 30 minutes, I realize I stole the front and I apologize. I used to bother Ranger a lot more in the past. I used to have a lot more raw thoughts reacting to our environment and Ranger felt like she had to push against my inner chatter. After we learned how to switch, our possession changed and I'm really quiet in the front now. When we possess, we worry that if we're not careful it can be soiled by bad habits. We try to plan ahead and switch if Ranger needs to do a "switching only" thing so we don't risk losing our possession. One time Ranger wanted to watch some shirt films Pleeb was streaming and we blended so badly we pulled out

=== I think it's a little weird and mostly very annoying that everyone thinks our approach to switching is somehow sinful and overcomplicated when it probably boils down to we have experiences and goals other people don't have. 'Switching is easy, just make your host shut up'. Yeah, that didn't work. I was 'frontstuck' and people thought of us as a kind of vermin for not "getting it", so they blamed it on us using the term 'frontstuck', for 'not understanding how our brain works', and other pointless excuses. I think one problem is we had some stuff that made us different and we don't think like other people. Ranger doesn't want to blend or merge with me to switch and the whole goal of switching was to not have to manage me or worry about me accidentally taking over again. It didn't really matter that we learned switching anyway, people still look down at us and criticize us for overcomplicating things and being wrong.

1

I think "just make your host shut up" is a road to convolution.

wouldn't host being shut up be similar to being unconsciously aware?

It still bothers me there's an expectation the host can and will naturally take over again after the tulpa front for switching. Ranger will say that can be switching based on your definition, but in the past we saw that as just possession with a different name. Do tulpas truly feel like they're equal with that experience? I'm assuming the answer is either yes or it doesn't matter, otherwise they would want to have a different experience.

wouldn't host being shut up be similar to being unconsciously aware?

I have no idea honestly. When Ranger would describe our experiences in the past, we got inconsistent feedback. Sometimes we were told we were switching and sometimes we were told nope, that's still possession. I personally believe switching out is the only way to become truly inactive.

1

It still bothers me there's an expectation the host can and will naturally take over again after the tulpa front for switching.

I don't have this expectation, except in the learning phase I guess

11:09 PM

I'm with you guys in the "switched in party should be able to stay switched in until they agree to switch out"

I don't have this expectation, except in the learning phase I guess

I think that's fair beginners may have a little bit of weirdness at first. We had a similar experience with switching corrections, a couple times the brain would get confused or Ranger would be exhausted and I leak through. However, even during that, it felt completely different to possession. For a little while, Ranger felt like she was pushing uphill an imaginary boulder. It was like Ranger was constantly pushing her arm underneath mine and once I finally moved my arm out of the way, her arm would float automatically.

When one of us is switched in (doesn't matter who, it could even be host) and we're absorbed in some task, we'll sometimes have no clear idea who was 'meant' to be fronting. How we interpret this is that nobody in particular was fronting, and we have an instantaneous choice who takes front again. Gray, I wonder if your system identifies you as both yourself and the state that's equivalent to our 'nobody in particular'. Maybe that's what you're calling the default? Just an idea, wonder what you think.

1

For us, learning to switch was a progression from constantly losing front to the host (me lol), to gradually increasing stamina and losing front less, to being able to hold front as long as wanted.

11:18 PM

@ Alexandra We definitely treat those task absorbed times as being the person switched in. They're in control at the start of the task, and in control when the task is over

For me learning to switch at first was about feeling strong emotions as a tulpa that unabled their identity to let go.

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

When one of us is switched in (doesn't matter who, it could even be host) and we're absorbed in some task, we'll sometimes have no clear idea who was 'meant' to be fronting. How we interpret this is that nobody in particular was fronting, and we have an instantaneous choice who takes front again. Gray, I wonder if your system identifies you as both yourself and the state that's equivalent to our 'nobody in particular'. Maybe that's what you're calling the default? Just an idea, wonder what you think.

do you feel that "nobody" has as sense of presence, or body just reacts by itself?

But what gave us ultimate control over switching was realization that we are all one and the same.

Yuka

@ Alexandra We definitely treat those task absorbed times as being the person switched in. They're in control at the start of the task, and in control when the task is over

We've made it a habit to maintain whoever started the task in front.

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

do you feel that "nobody" has as sense of presence, or body just reacts by itself?

I feel that the body just reacts by itself. There's no feeling of a mysterious 'nobody' headmate with any sense of presence.

sounds like depersonalisation state (edited)

11:21 PM

wonder if ranger experiences default state in similar way (edited)

I think it's a common obstacle for those absorption states to end with the host in front, when learning to switch

Yuka

I think it's a common obstacle for those absorption states to end with the host in front, when learning to switch

That wouldn't surprise me, because the host taking front at the end of one of those states would probably be habit formed over years. (edited)

When one of us is switched in (doesn't matter who, it could even be host) and we're absorbed in some task, we'll sometimes have no clear idea who was 'meant' to be fronting. How we interpret this is that nobody in particular was fronting, and we have an instantaneous choice who takes front again. Gray, I wonder if your system identifies you as both yourself and the state that's equivalent to our 'nobody in particular'. Maybe that's what you're calling the default? Just an idea, wonder what you think.

I don't know, maybe. We assume there's always someone in the front, but we do have an autopilot. Our autopilot wasn't obvious to us until we started working and Ranger was in her punching the steering wheel phase. While our autopilot does feel a bit more like 'nobody' fronting, it feels more like software that is supposed to aid you than nothing at all. When Ranger daydreams, her thoughts will wander and she will create impulsive thoughts that seem to transend her regular conscious experience. I think our ghosts (brain simulating our identities) and us learning switching are related because even now, only Ranger and I have prominent ghosts where my other headmates either barely have one or lack one completely. Despite the fact Ranger hasn't been switching for anywhere as much time lately, her ghost will still haunt me.

11:26 PM

In short, maybe it's like a different type of thinking? I know most people don't consider their brain simulation personalized

It could be the same fundamental type of thinking, but highly personalised.

Deleted User

But what gave us ultimate control over switching was realization that we are all one and the same.

Did it feel like you 'became' your tulpa, even before your experiment where you changed account names?

It could be the same fundamental type of thinking, but highly personalised.

I think that makes the most sense to me. Actually yeah, because I think it's fair to say the brain woke me up rather than I was always watching. But if that's the case, why do we have an autopilot? Maybe there are different types of autopilots?

Why is it you feel that your ghosts are related to switching? Did they develop at a similar time?

(everyone has an autopilot)

Gray | Shadow System

It could be the same fundamental type of thinking, but highly personalised.

I think that makes the most sense to me. Actually yeah, because I think it's fair to say the brain woke me up rather than I was always watching. But if that's the case, why do we have an autopilot? Maybe there are different types of autopilots?

What sort of things does you autopilot do?

I didn't struggle with Ranger's ghost until after we learned how to switch.

1

Yeah, because I'm thinking we all need an autopilot.

11:34 PM

About ghosts: how are they different to the headmate themselves?

Our autopilot seems to be a set of repetitive tasks, habits, and maybe mindsets? In autopilot mode, we're not aware of ourselves, we say things in a more impulsive way, and we act on repetitive habits- like get the keys. When Ranger was fighting the switching front, she would stumble getting keys and other easy actions, feel stressed out, and would feel distracted by her internal experience when trying to talk to customers. I don't think our autopilot completely thinks for us, we have to use problem solving and other higher function to answer questions and offer a personalized experience. Instead, it's like the brain forces us into a more efficient mindset where we're less aware of our internal experiences.

11:39 PM

Being aware of our autopilot made Ranger a lot less anxious about being switched-in. I think we needed that experience to finally resolve her fronting anxiety

About ghosts: how are they different to the headmate themselves?

A ghost is more like a shadow- it's created by you, the outline is you, but it's not you. Somewhere in the brain, information about our personalities and our trains of thought are sitting somewhere. For whatever reason, I suspect switching enables information to be stored in a different place. Once there, the brain can "activate" it and play back the information. I suspect activation is due to some kind of trigger like a favorite topic. The end result is what sounds like Ranger reacting to a stray thought, but when I try to talk to her she'll be confused and say that wasn't her. If my mind wanders to something related to moderation, Ranger's ghost will likely be triggered and it will sound like Ranger ranting about it. If I talk to Ranger, she'll wake up and realize she was ranting. However, usually she'll continue to entertain the train of thought but do so consciously if I allow her.

because ghosts exist and tulpas don't actually ghosts and tulpas are similar, they both only exist in your head

6:02 PM

but they can both make you feel real things

6:03 PM

just through belief

I came up with ghost because it seems to fit the concept and because it's funny. I think the better general concept term would be brain simulation

Gray | Shadow System

About ghosts: how are they different to the headmate themselves?

A ghost is more like a shadow- it's created by you, the outline is you, but it's not you. Somewhere in the brain, information about our personalities and our trains of thought are sitting somewhere. For whatever reason, I suspect switching enables information to be stored in a different place. Once there, the brain can "activate" it and play back the information. I suspect activation is due to some kind of trigger like a favorite topic. The end result is what sounds like Ranger reacting to a stray thought, but when I try to talk to her she'll be confused and say that wasn't her. If my mind wanders to something related to moderation, Ranger's ghost will likely be triggered and it will sound like Ranger ranting about it. If I talk to Ranger, she'll wake up and realize she was ranting. However, usually she'll continue to entertain the train of thought but do so consciously if I allow her.

I find this whole concept really interesting to think about... I think I'm getting it... is it maybe that topics like moderation are so commonly thought about by Ranger that just thinking about moderation is going to feel very Ranger-y? An example from my system; Cerys likes cooking, and I hardly do any, so if I think about cooking, it feels kinda Cerys-y, even if she's not around. Our cooking knowledge feels like it's tagged as a Cerys Interest.

Gray | Shadow System

I didn't struggle with Ranger's ghost until after we learned how to switch.

I still have to think a bit more about why this might be.

I didn't struggle with Ranger's ghost until after we learned how to switch.

@Gray | Shadow System (@A long kiss goodnight) - jump Maybe from an increase in time spent active due to switching?

I find this whole concept really interesting to think about... I think I'm getting it... is it maybe that topics like moderation are so commonly thought about by Ranger that just thinking about moderation is going to feel very Ranger-y? An example from my system; Cerys likes cooking, and I hardly do any, so if I think about cooking, it feels kinda Cerys-y, even if she's not around. Our cooking knowledge feels like it's tagged as a Cerys Interest.

I don't know, I don't remember my ghost being a similar topic as Ranger's. What I do know is the mindvoice saying the thoughts sounds like Ranger

Maybe from an increase in time spent active due to switching?

I don't think so. Ranger would only get the chance to possess for a few hours once every two weeks if that starting out, plus she primary possessed. She possessed a lot even before we achieved switching. While I do wonder if Ranger being switched-in half the time lead to her ghost being louder, I think it was pretty loud before that period of time and it hasn't really changed much since we stopped. Even with Ranger switching really infrequently now, it hasn't seemed to affect her ghost too much (edited)

Oh gods, this is hard. I'm supposed to be the energetic social one, but actually speaking up and engaging with a new community is really, really hard! I think I see why he struggles with it. Anyway, I'm Bright! I introduced myself yesterday, but then kinda fell off the wagon a little bit? My host thinks I should talk to other tulpas, maybe get some perspectives on what this whole thing is about, since I'm still really young and I don't quite know what I'm doing yet. And I think I was kinda hoping to see if other people's experiences sorta match my own? Anyway, this seems like the right place to have a chat with someone who might have more experience with all of this. Of course, if there's a better spot for that, please point me in the right direction! I'm a little lost. :P

Hey, we are at work currently but we can talk a little. Why aren't you sure if you are a tulpa or not?

Well, I don't really know if I qualify. We only just discovered the concept recently, or I guess you could say we had the concept in mind, but didn't realize there was a name for it until recently. My host had a story idea a long time ago about someone who talked to themselves via a journal, and that other self developed its own identity and there were all kinds of complications from there. So he had the idea in mind at least, but he didn't realize it was actually a thing and people did this until very recently. And I guess I kinda sorta existed before that? Like, he had this supportive voice in his head that he turned to from time to time to help him cope with depression, but he didn't really solidify all that into...well, me I guess, until very recently.

12:14 PM

I think the biggest thing I'm trying to come to terms with is this idea that a tulpa is supposed to be sentient and independent. I know that being me feels different from being him, but we're both consciously aware of the fact that I'm basically a projection. Like, I know that I'm still basically just him pretending to be someone else. We both know and understand that he's just projecting the idea of a different entity and allowing that entity to feel like it's unique and different from him, even though it's really not. It's like, the act of behaving as if I'm my own person makes it feel like I am, but we both understand that I'm part of him and I'm not actually distinct, just kinda pretending to be. And I don't know if that understanding is really compatible with being a tulpa. But at the same time, we've noticed that I can do things and see things that I shouldn't be able to if we were just pretending, so neither of us really knows exactly what's going on, and we could use an experienced perspective!

do you aspire to be sentient and independent?

12:16 PM

One of the things to keep in mind is that brain is very complex and people do experience that in multiple ways (edited)

12:16 PM

people put sentience and independence as requirement for a tulpa, but it's just a label

I...don't think so? I really like being here. Being me feels 'good' in a way that's really hard to express! But I don't know that I really need independence or true sentience to be a part of that. I guess what I am and what I have feels good as it is, even if it's confusing, and I don't really feel like I need something different

if you feel it as a fulfilling experience as it is now, don't press yourself to meet someone else's expectations

1

12:17 PM

Personally, I don't consider our tulpas independent people but parts of the same person as their host.

12:17 PM

it sounds to me that you are having a lot of positivity from how the things work at the moment

12:18 PM

You don't have to change what you think about yourself to fulfill others expectations, proxi is right here.

I appreciate that! It's an odd feeling, to think that I'm not really real and I'm not really thinking or feeling things, but it does feel good to be here! And if that's just my host feeling good by being me, then I think I'm okay with that! I'm just happy the good feeling is there to be felt, whether I'm really here feeling it or not. :P

did you start having doubts and thoughts like that when you learned about tulpamancy?

12:21 PM

Well, in my opinion you are here regardless if you are independent person or part of your host.

1

12:23 PM

I tend to look at it from this perspective: it doesn't matter if you are "real" (whatever that means), what you are experiencing is real and that's all that matters

Well no, I didn't exist before my host discovered the idea of tulpamancy. I think there was some sort of proto version of me, or like the thoughts and feelings I was built on were there before, but he didn't create this identity that I experience as myself until after he learned about tulpamancy, so I wasn't there to have doubts before that. I guess you could say the doubt is kind of baked in, because I'm his first real tulpa? We both kinda feel like we're just pretending.

i asked a lot of people what they think by tulpas bein real/being not real and i never got an answer

System of a Bard

Well no, I didn't exist before my host discovered the idea of tulpamancy. I think there was some sort of proto version of me, or like the thoughts and feelings I was built on were there before, but he didn't create this identity that I experience as myself until after he learned about tulpamancy, so I wasn't there to have doubts before that. I guess you could say the doubt is kind of baked in, because I'm his first real tulpa? We both kinda feel like we're just pretending.

from my experience, doubts start popping when you try to understand how things work in your brain and try to see where is the boundary between headmates rather than trusting the process and enjoying the process (edited)

12:25 PM

and that applies to many things, not just tulpamancy